Matt Stevens ([info]kent_allard_jr) wrote,
@ 2008-04-15 15:06:00
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Hippies, Geeks and Rednecks
I've thought a bit about our image of The Geek since I saw Weird Al Yankovic's "White and Nerdy". Yankovic plays the depiction of the stereotypical geek: The skinny guy with horn-rimmed glasses, wearing a shirt and tie and a pocket protector. It's an old stereotype, which you can see in the posters for Revenge of the Nerds (1984) and dozens of other places.

The weird thing, though, is I've spent plenty of time over the years with hard-core geeks -- D&D players, fanfic writers, Monty Python fanatics, Trekkies, you name them -- and very few of them ever resembled the stereotype. If I had to describe the Typical Male Geek (and when I was a kid the typical geek was male), he might wear glasses but he'd look almost nothing like the Revenge of the Nerd type. He'd be chubby rather than skinny; he'd have long hair and a beard; he'd wear T-shirts and sneakers, and wouldn't get caught wearing a tie if his life depended on it. (If any of you resemble this stereotype -- and I know some of you do! -- please accept my apologies in advance.)

If you want to see people who look like Revenge of the Nerd Geeks, they're easy to find: Go to photographs from the 1950s and (to a lesser extent) the 1960s, and you'll see them all over the place. (See this photo of the Dave Brubeck Quartet, for example.) They were the squares in the 1960s. Who were their enemies? The hippies! And it's the hippies, not the squares, that the geeks most closely resemble.

Now honest-to-God hippies are pretty rare these days, but I've come to think that Hippie-dom didn't disappear so much as splinter and morph into a number of subcultures that are still around. I suspect -- but obviously can't prove -- that Hippie-dom gradually took over large segments of the white working class, especially in rural areas. When you think of the stereotypical crystal meth addict you probably picture a long-haired, bearded guy in a T-shirt -- someone, in other words, who'd look right at home in Gen Con in 1982. (I'm reminded, years ago, of an article which listed the reading habits of Death Row inmates. As I recall, H.P. Lovecraft was by far their favorite author.)

I'm not sure what conclusion I'd like to draw from all of this, but I'd be curious to see what connections we might find among these different strands of American culture.


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[info]agrumer
2008-04-15 08:09 pm UTC (link)
The Comic Book Guy, from The Simpsons, on the other hand, is dead-on, right down to the verbal mannerisms.

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[info]kent_allard_jr
2008-04-15 08:35 pm UTC (link)
Yep. Groening definitely knew the type. :)

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[info]hslayer
2008-04-15 08:19 pm UTC (link)
I'm not sure there's as strong a connection between geekdom and hippiedom as you think. I know a lot about geeks and am just sort of guessing about hippies, but the difference as I see it is that hippies studiously go about cultivating their unkempt look in order to make a statement against consumer culture blah blah blah. Geeks, on the other hand, end up looking like that because we just don't give a crap. I think being a geek may require having at least a somewhat obsessive personality, which means intense focus on what we're interested in to the detriment of everything else. So the end result being similar appearance may be something of a coincidence.

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[info]trinityvixen
2008-04-15 08:22 pm UTC (link)
Convergent evolution!

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[info]kent_allard_jr
2008-04-15 08:34 pm UTC (link)
I dunno, I think the hippie attitude was pretty much the same as the geek attitude: These things just don't matter. They weren't as committed to looking bad as (say) the Punks were.

Besides, in some cases the connections are pretty obvious. Science fiction and fantasy were pretty prominent in last 60s/early 70s rock and roll: Led Zeppelin had their song about Lord of the Rings; that Yes album I gave you had a song called "Starship Troopers." (And Led Zeppelin, of course, was either a founder or a precursor to heavy metal, the music of choice for rednecks who didn't care for country.)

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[info]hslayer
2008-04-15 08:45 pm UTC (link)
Fair enough. But consider the jeans and t-shirts. That doesn't make me think "hippy" so much as it does "skater". Why might that be? Maybe geeks are utilitarian and skaters need to move easily, so both want their clothes to be comfortable. I think it's easy enough for two (of many) social groups to say, "looks don't matter," (either they do or don't, and only when they do can you get different looks) without it necessarily indicating a historical connection between them.

With the notable exception of the music, I don't think much of hippy culture has really permeated our society, in spite of the boomers' rise to power. Consider, for example, that geeks are tremendously consumerist, which is about as far from hippy ideals as one can get. (Of course, I have a near Cartman-level hatred of hippies, and am a geek, so my opinions here may be skewed in favor of there being no connection.)

What might lend some insight would be to figure out when (then why and how) geeks stopped obsessing about fastidiousness, leading to the "square" look of the 50s, and started obsessing about whatever else to the EXCLUSION of their appearance. I suspect that at some point it involved some sort of rebellion against employers who required a certain level or type of dress from engineers (I know IBM was big on this back in the day), though that's largely speculation on my part.

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[info]kent_allard_jr
2008-04-15 09:08 pm UTC (link)
Well part of the problem is that almost everyone wears jeans and T-shirts these days. It's not a distinguishing feature any more, and this is one area where the hippies really did take over the Western world. On the other hand, the Jesus look has never really been popular, except (again) in certain sub-cultures, like geeks and rednecks.

Obviously there are elements of Hippie-dom that are alien to geek culture; hippies were often back-to-nature types, while geeks usually shy away from heavy drug use. Still, I think the connections are stronger than me might suspect.

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[info]hslayer
2008-04-15 09:25 pm UTC (link)
Well, the "Jesus look" is simply the look you get when you don't bother to shave or get haircuts. My assertion is that geeks (and probably also rednecks) actually can't be bothered, because they don't care how they look, while hippies explicitly want to look like they don't care how they look. It's a subtle but critical difference.

As I said, I think someone who has bothered to shave and get a haircut could easily find acceptance in a group of geeks, which means appearance is not a distinguishing feature to a GREAT extent. Though I would admit that it is to some extent. No one sporting a douchebag look is going to find it easy to fit in with geeks.

Oh, and is heavy metal really that popular among rednecks? I would've thought it was about as far from country music as one could get (at least today, despite the clear country influence in early Black Sabbath).

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[info]womzilla
2008-04-27 01:06 pm UTC (link)
Heavy metal is hugely popular among rednecks. Or at least it was back when I was living in redneck country (central North Carolina); perhaps things have changed in the past 16 years; nationwide, heavy metal isn't as popular as it was then.

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[info]barking_iguana
2008-04-15 10:03 pm UTC (link)
Sexual attitudes are overwhelmingly descended from hippiedom. In 1973, some sociologist went on Dick Cavett (the intelligent alternative to Carson) and predicted that within several years sexual activity before marriage would be socially acceptable. He was making an outlandish prediction. At the time, only hippies and some sections of the lower class would openly admit being in relationships that included outright sex without being married.

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[info]hslayer
2008-04-16 04:09 am UTC (link)
Yes, but is that really "descended from hippiedom" or just part of the ongoing liberalization of western culture that had been going on at least since the turn of the century? (I will admit that the early feminist movement probably had a lot to do with it, and that that probably was closely related to hippiedom.)

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[info]trinityvixen
2008-04-15 08:48 pm UTC (link)
Isn't that stereotype one for nerds, not geeks? I can see where some crossover happens, but the titles even spell out that this is about nerds. Geeks, on the other hand, tend to be as prickly as nerds over different things to the point where they can still function despite the bias of anti-intellectualism.

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[info]hslayer
2008-04-15 09:04 pm UTC (link)
You're right, and if you look at the etymology of "nerd", you'll see that it dates back to the 50s and clearly began as basically a synonym of "square".

Today, I would say there's more than a little overlap between "geeks" and "nerds", though that may have more to do with the definitions being blurred than the groups mixing. But it does raise the point that some of those who are clearly more nerd than geek still tend to have the pocket protectors and stuff, while those who are more geek than nerd tend to be as described here.

I'd also point out that anyone not FASHIONABLY dressed is likely to find acceptance in either group (probably more easily than someone who shows up looking like an Abercrombie model), which implies that either specific look isn't actually important in being identified as a member of the group, and so shouldn't necessarily be seen as a defining characteristic of the group.

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[info]kent_allard_jr
2008-04-15 09:14 pm UTC (link)
It's not just fashion, though. It's the music, the politics (both in its left-wing and libertarian sides), the religious subcultures (I've met very few pagans outside of fandom, for example), the sexual practices ("poly" and so forth) ... There's definitely the whiff of 60s counterculture to it.

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[info]hslayer
2008-04-15 09:18 pm UTC (link)
Music...eh, I'm not sure how much I believe there *IS* a pervasive music preference among geeks/nerds. Politics...sure, both groups comprise free-thinkers, so both would tend to lean towards liberalism/libertarianism. Religious...I guess I'd agree, though I think geeks are more likely to be atheist than pagan/wiccan/etc. Sexual...come on, these are GEEKS we're talking about. :P

I can certainly agree that both are countercultures which eventually obtained at least some degree of wider acceptance. That's bound to lead to some similarity.

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[info]kent_allard_jr
2008-04-15 09:25 pm UTC (link)
The sexual side is very much there. Look at the "poly" practices; it isn't quite "free love," but it's close. There are also some "kinky" sex groups in the CUSFS orbit: bondage, S&M, furries, etc.

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[info]hslayer
2008-04-15 09:27 pm UTC (link)
Yeah, I was just making the easy "geeks never get laid" joke.

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[info]jlc
2008-04-16 02:50 am UTC (link)
Bondage, S&M, and poly in spades. Furry? Not so much, actually. Furries, for whatever reason, happen to be way less prevalent in CUSFS than in SF/gaming fandom as a whole. (Nor is it necessarily a kink, but whatever, it's not entirely unfair to lump them together as it's hard for me to think of a furry who's not at least a little into some form of kink...)

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[info]womzilla
2008-04-27 01:09 pm UTC (link)
I was surprised to meet a pagan outside of fandom a few years ago, because I never had. But then I realized a) most of the people I know well enough to know anything about their religious beliefs are in fandom, and b) most American pagans are at least somewhat secretive about it (the phrase is "in the broom closet"), so it's even more likely that anyone I knew well enough to know they were a pagan was in fandom.

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[info]kent_allard_jr
2008-04-15 09:16 pm UTC (link)
I'm using the terms "geek" and "nerd" as synonyms, which may be unfair in some ways, but it's at least a pretty common usage. Nevertheless it may be worth looking into the etymology of the terms and seeing why they're considered interchangeable.

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[info]jlc
2008-04-16 03:15 am UTC (link)
I disagree; there's a huge difference in implication that highlights exactly the divergence from the nerd stereotype you're talking about in the OP. At the very least, the distinction is a useful one for those of us who run into both types of culturally disparate but often behaviorally similar people. I know tons of folks in the CS department who are nerds in every possible part of the stereotype but not at all geeky in the sense that many of our friends are.

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[info]doc_mystery
2008-04-16 12:52 pm UTC (link)
They aren't synonyms, but the terms are being conflated these days.

::B::

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[info]moonlightalice
2008-04-16 03:33 am UTC (link)
There's a Lego version, too:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nh9mVsBKwYs&NR=1

Can you catch the mistake?

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[info]mooninj4
2008-04-16 06:58 am UTC (link)
Hee!! Too cute! ^^

But it looked like somebody forgot their math ^^;;

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[info]moonlightalice
2008-04-16 12:19 pm UTC (link)
Oh no I wasn't talking about the math.

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[info]womzilla
2008-04-27 01:11 pm UTC (link)
Ooh, they misspelled "Escher". Still, a great effort!

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[info]moonlightalice
2008-04-27 01:41 pm UTC (link)
Haha not that either! I can't believe that no one noticed that when he refers to which one is better: Kirk or Picard, he points to the one with hair as Picard and the bald one as Kirk!

Well I thought it was funny.

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[info]agrumer
2008-04-16 04:35 am UTC (link)
I think of the groups surrounding Stewart Brand -- CoEvolution Quarterly, The Whole Earth Catalog, the WELL -- as a good example of the overlap between hippie and geek cultures.

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