Matt Stevens ([info]kent_allard_jr) wrote,
@ 2008-05-01 17:52:00
Previous Entry  Add to memories!  Tell a Friend!  Next Entry
Shut Down the USSC
Jim Henley watches Antonin Scalia defend the constitutionality of torture (it isn't punishment, you see, so it isn't prohibited by the Cruel and Unusual clause), and I blow my stack commenting on the follow up post. My point is serious: Guys like Scalia have no value. "Judicial Restraint" of this kind just leads to a Supreme Court with no reason to exist.

In the meantime, we read how Obama is fighting the perception that he's an "elitist." Maybe it's time to end the Presidency, too. This is just too painful to watch.

(Post a new comment)


[info]mrs_dm
2008-05-02 02:40 am UTC (link)
I guess Scalia is right, in a way. In purely psychological terms, torture (used as a means of getting information) is not punishment. Punishment is a method of operational conditioning in order to shape desired behaviour. For instance, someone may have a puppy that pees on the floor, and decides to punish it to stop it from peeing on the floor. The problem is, punishment is a very ineffective way to train puppies, or get someone to talk.

Now wait a minute! One could then well say that torture is a form of punishment. If the behaviour one wants to change is "not talking or divulging information", then one can view torture as punishment, that is, inflicting discomfort in order to change behaviour (getting the person to talk).

But you're right. Scalia's full of shit.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

[info]wellgull
2008-05-03 03:00 pm UTC (link)
Precisely my argument -- torture must be punishment, because it is a negative consequence attached by an authority to a particular behavior, in this case not talking.

The only way torture could not be a punishment is if it were applied equally to all prisoners of a given status, regardless of whether or not they talked. Of course, that would make it manifestly obvious that there's no justifiable rationale for torture (even if it actually did produce useful, non-confabulated information under any circumstances).

But then Scalia would just come back on and say, "No, no, torture's okay; see, it's actually just a cruel and unusual reward."

(Reply to this)(Parent)

[info]hslayer
2008-05-02 02:34 pm UTC (link)
Here's the Daily Show with Jon Stewart watching all this and saying he wants an elitist president:
http://www.thedailyshow.com/video/index.jhtml?videoId=166074

And here's the bit they did a few weeks later with John Hodgman complaining about how elitists are persecuted:
http://www.thedailyshow.com/video/index.jhtml?videoId=166410

(Reply to this)

Create an Account
Forgot your login?
Login w/ OpenID
English • Español • Deutsch • Русский…